Bain-Blog

Tuesday, December 13, 2005

Iraq

Should the Oshkosh Common Council vote to place the proposed Iraq War referendum question on the April 2006 election ballot? I've received phone calls and emails from both sides. The group that circulated the petitions included a document in our council packet for background information. The Oshkosh Northwestern ran a story and an editorial on it. It's even been debated on the Eye on Oshkosh website.

  • What do you think?
  • Does it make a difference that the petitioners were originally told that it didn't matter how many signature they collected because it would ultimately be up to the council, i.e., it would not qualify as direct legislation?
  • Is this an appropriate topic for a local level of government?
  • If approved, should it be on the April or November ballot?

-Bryan

posted by Bryan L. Bain at 12/13/2005 08:31:00 AM

20 Comments:

  • To answer the four bullet points:

    1. No
    2. No
    3. No
    4. No

    Thanks for the chance to give feedback Brian. This is not an issue for the Oshkosh Common Council. Please vote against it!!! You have more important issues that you can actually do something about.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 13, 2005 2:54 PM  

  • Hot off the presses - from a Wisconsin Green Party Press Release issued Tuesday Night:

    Most local referendum efforts are utilizing a little-used state statute (9.20) that provides a process by which citizens may petition to have a resolution either adopted by their city council or put before voters in a referendum. Petitioners in Algoma, Amery, Casco, Ephraim, Egg Harbor, Evansville, Forestville, Kewaunee, LaCrosse, Luxemburg, Madison, Shorewood, Sister Bay, and Sturgeon Bay have collected the required number of signatures, and have turned their petitions in to their local Common Councils.

    In Frederic and Monona, the required number of signatures has been collected, but the petitions have not yet been turned in. Monona petitioners will be turning their signatures in Wednesday morning.

    Activists in cities such as Green Bay and Milwaukee are asking their Common Councils to allow voters to weigh in on this issue.

    Citizens in Manitowoc County asked the Manitowoc County Board to put the question on the ballot countywide in April, but the Legislative Committee of the Manitowoc County Board of Supervisors declined to act on the proposal and the effort died. Citizens in the cities of Manitowoc and Two Rivers are circulating petitions to put a Bring the Troops Home question on the ballot in those two communities.

    “It strikes me as ironic that while United States troops are, according to President Bush, fighting to bring democracy to Iraq, the recent decision by the Manitowoc County Board of Supervisors Legislative Committee has limited democracy in our county,” wrote Mary Thiesen, a resident of Manitowoc County, in a letter to the editor in the Herald Times Reporter, a Manitowoc paper.

    More than 16 other communities are working to get an opportunity to vote on bringing the troops home from Iraq. Oshkosh and Sawyer County are among them.

    [babblemur] - it appears that Milwaukee has voted to put it on the ballot in November, not April. To me, April seems wiser as it will join other state efforts.

    By Blogger Ron, at December 14, 2005 12:37 AM  

  • Of course it should be on the ballot.
    Is the Council afraid of a little direct democracy on the war?
    When is the last time 1,700 plus citizens signed a petition in Oshkosh?
    Lighten up. The measure will greatly increase voter turnout in April and give everyone who votes the right to say yes or to say no.Isn't that what democracy is all about?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 14, 2005 8:58 AM  

  • I wish there would have been the needed number of signatures gathered - it would have been easier.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 14, 2005 1:10 PM  

  • Update: the council will vote on whether or not to place the referendum question on the April ballot. Councilor Paul Esslinger has agreed to sponsor a proposal and it will be discussed and voted on at the January 10, 2006 council meeting.

    -Bryan

    By Blogger Bryan L. Bain, at December 14, 2005 1:44 PM  

  • And how do you plan on voting Mr. Bain?

    Jack Straw

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 14, 2005 2:43 PM  

  • It is a fine idea to pose these questions online for the internet community, but remember, you have already received 1757 comments from citizens saying they want this on the ballot.

    By the way, the Milwaukee common council approved a plan to place a similar question on the November ballot. They approved this without the required signitures for direct legislation.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 15, 2005 12:07 PM  

  • More people are going to come out and vote because this referendum is on the ballot? What does that say about those people? they will only come out and vote when something they want is on the ballot? How about they try a little direct democracy when something so near and dear to their hearts is not on the ballot?

    Having this on the ballot has nothing to do with direct democracy(whatever that means). Nothing will change as a result of this referendum.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 15, 2005 3:48 PM  

  • Much to do about nothing! For the most part I find this ironic that Paul Esslinger (champion of the working stiff - always looking out for the taxpayer - ha) is supporting this. Paul, how much is this going to cost and what do we get in return? Let's do a cost/benefit analysis. Let's see, there is cost involved in getting this on a ballot, processing the results . . . oh, and the benefit??? . . . a lot of feel good. Way to go Paul! Keep this thing off the ballot as there are no binding criteria.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 15, 2005 3:56 PM  

  • There was no binding criteria for the 2 Wisconsin Counties Association "Advisory Referenda" questions we voted on last Spring - did anyone complain about the cost of those? Did anyone complain about their relevance?

    This is actually a question that everyone seems to actually have an opinion on - unlike the WCA questions last April. If the ballot actually contained candidates people wanted to vote for, and questions people wanted to vote on, maybe we could increase voter turnout past the 20-30 percent level for municipal elections.

    Why are some people so afraid of this question? Why are some people so afraid of hearing what their neighbors might think about this war? Are they afraid that they may find out that they are in the minority?

    By Blogger Ron, at December 15, 2005 9:56 PM  

  • babblemur I usually enjoy hearing your point of view but I think you are not tracking this one! The blogs and letters to the editor etc. are excellent places for voices to be heard when it comes to opinions but since the city has NO authority to keep or remove troops from Iraq it is senseless to have it on the ballot. I agree with the comment wondering why we are spending money on this. Paul must be getting ready got re-election.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 16, 2005 7:45 AM  

  • The decision before me is not how I, personally, feel about the war. The decision is should the council put the referendum question on the ballot. I'm not trying to be evasive, however, I'm not ready to commit to a "yes" or "no" vote at this time. I'm hearing new perspectives daily, so I want to keep collecting information before I make a final decision.

    On one hand, the question is legitimate, there is local and state precedent, the issue does impact the city and the group was originally told this would not qualify for direct legislation.

    On the other hand, the group could have complied with the direct legislation rules and they have the option to re-circulate petitions for direct legislation.

    Let's maintain an open, civil dialogue between now and the January 10th council meeting.

    -Bryan

    By Blogger Bryan L. Bain, at December 16, 2005 8:06 AM  

  • I believe that the main reason the issue of insufficient signitures is even brought up is because the Northwestern wrote an editorial without having any clue as to what is going on.

    It is not the place for a representative of the people to attack the people when the city attorney provides faulty information. This is not the first time that this has happened either. For his sake, after several cities had already passed the direct legislation, he changed his "opinion".

    The point should be mute though. 1750 people have requested this to happen. That is alot of people in Oshkosh - enough to get any council member through a primary, and likely more than have commented on a city issue in a long time. There clearly is a demand.

    Milwaukee Council passed without the sufficient signatures. They, just like other cities, felt that this is an extreamly important issue and the signitures that were collected simply acted as additional support for the referendum.

    So far, at least 13 cities are placing this on the ballot, some with direct legislation and others through the city council. Cities include Madison, Milwaukee, Lacrosse, and others.

    Bryan, thank you for your involvement with this. It is good to see that you are participating in the discussions. I just hope that the other council members are open to the idea of something different, engaging, and provoking.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 16, 2005 8:43 AM  

  • Do you think there would be support for a referendum to ask our citizens if the "garbage fee" is legal, since it really is a tax and we are under a levee freeze, and should it be removed immediately? I would think there would be a ton of support for that referendum. And it actually contains something the council could do something about. Lets see if we can get that on the April ballot!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 16, 2005 11:16 AM  

  • Whether or not this is on the ballot does not matter to me. Some things to point out however:

    We are not at war with Iraq.

    Although I have no statistics to offer, this "war" has probably helped our local economy in the fact Oshkosh Truck receives large military contracts, especially when vehicles are needed for large military operations. They are a large company in this city and this can't be hurting our local economy in that aspect.

    It would be nice to see the effort of the people who have drawn up this petition to do the same with issues that pertain more directly to the City of Oshkosh, as stated earlier, the Garbage tax for example.

    Just some things to think about when deciding on this issue.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 16, 2005 5:47 PM  

  • For the misguided and incorrect out there in cyberspace, the United States is not a democracy, it is a republic.

    http://tinyurl.com/2e07

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 17, 2005 8:55 AM  

  • This should NOT be on the ballot. Send the petitions to your federal representatives, but this is not something that should be put on a local ballot. By not requiring the proper number of signatures and putting this on the ballot, the city council sets a precedent to allow anyone to petition for anything. How could they then say no to a different cause? In doing so, they would make themselves look like an activist council. NOT what I want in public service.

    P.S. The fact that the messed up Milwaukee City Council will put this on the ballot is nothing to brag about. They also are going to manipulate the wording to get more "yes" votes and are also going to put a question on the ballot that would make city contractors disclose if they or any of their previous companies have ever profited from slavery! Why don't we put that one on ours too?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 18, 2005 9:27 PM  

  • Let's face it, this proposed referendum is a way to use the common council to rally suppport for the anti-war movement. Using the Oshkosh common council for the anti-war voice, or any of the other local municipalities being pressured by these groups, is a shear waste of local tax payer dollars and time. The common council is not the appropriate means to have the anti-war voice heard. This needs to be done through your congressmen and representatives, which is the most EFFECTIVE means for the anti-war voice to be heard. It makes no sense to have this play out on the local level when our national security is a matter of federal responsibility. Federal representaitves from both sides are constatntly being briefed on the progress on the war on terrorism. I find it difficult to believe that a local council member has the information necessary to vote on such a referendum.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 19, 2005 4:30 PM  

  • How can you have so many people named "Anonymous" in one town?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at December 20, 2005 2:20 AM  

  • Well, the questions are very good, and I am glad that they have been brought up.
    I myself would have to say yes on all points, due to my experiance with this...

    By Blogger AngelAiken AKA Thee U.M.O.G, at December 22, 2005 11:11 AM  

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