Bain-Blog

Monday, April 30, 2007

The Leach

The Oshkosh Northwestern recently has written an editorial and a story on the PMI contract to manage the Leach Amphitheater. What are your thoughts? Are you satisfied with PMI's performance? Should the council reconsider the contract at the end of this season? How do you define "success" at the Leach?

-Bryan

posted by Bryan L. Bain at 4/30/2007 07:25:00 AM

47 Comments:

  • The Northwestern's take on this subject came about a week after I posted this: http://www.garyfromoshkosh.blogspot.com/2007/04/leach-amphitheater-pmi-waterfest-too.html
    (It might be easier just to click on my name at the beginning.) It appears that there is common thinking among a lot of people.

    By Blogger Gary, at April 30, 2007 12:57 PM  

  • Brian, I think one issue at play here is, as you state, how we are "defining" success. I get a sneaking suspicion that there are many out there who will never be satisfied with anything at the Leach, simply because they were against it from the get go and truly want to see it fail. We need to be careful to filter out hose voices from the conversation. You could bring in the Rolling Stones latest farewell tour for $5 and there are people here that would still complain about the Leach, so I beleive that some of these comments need to be taken with a grain of salt.

    That said, I truly beleive that the city and PMI have failed us with not opening the venue up for more local and community events- don't get me wrong, I participated in both the Dragon Boat Races and the Half Marathon and thought the facility was great for those. However, I was really envisioning Oshkosh Symphony conerts, Community Band concerts, or even perhaps a partnership with the Grand to bring in some more eclectic acts to utilize this unique facility. I guess i'm somewhat satisfied with the amount of national acts they have brought to a tough market at a new venue- I'd probably give them a B or B- for that, but on the true mission of the venue as a place for civic involvement and pride, the city and PMI have really disappointed. Probably a D. I don't think the other groups would have done any better than PMI in either category, but I do beleive the city needs to give whoever is managing the venue a mandate to work hand in hand with the groups mentioned above. The only way to get some of the negative energy toward this venue in the past is to ensure that it is a venue all can enjoy, and I think getting folks in for a couple bucks to see the Symphony, Choraliers or Community Band would go a long way towards doing that.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 8:46 AM  

  • 8:46 I agree partly with your comments, but your "spinning" the some people will never be happy thing.

    One of the major reasons PMI was chosen is THEY promoted themselves as being able to attract and book NATIONAL ACTS.

    If they hadn't made that pitch a real stong point, I think the council would have chosen the Supples as the promoters over PMI as they do have a more local community connection.

    I'd like to see the community band at the Leach also, but if PMI was hired under the pretense of having national act attracting ability, well they simply haven't delivered on that promise.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 10:11 AM  

  • What people are failing to realize is the national acts PMI did bring in were very poorly attended, PNI lost money. Why would they continue to stick money into more national acts when they lose money on every event?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 10:38 AM  

  • Lyle Lovette...
    OK sure thats a good "national" act.

    LOL

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 11:34 AM  

  • PMI is a marketing company. They are pros at this stuff.

    They should have been able to survey the demographics of the Oshkosh area attendees and gained insight into what the CUSTOMER wants. Then with that data, shopped around to fill the need.

    To have Lyle Loveette come in and then cry that he didn't fill the house was not how I would have thought a professional organization such as PMI would have managed this.

    The other piece of this is that when a facility is new, it should REALLY pack them in. As the newness wears off, so might attendance. PMI wasted a couple of rare precious years here.

    If you look at the Northewesten Blog Poll about PMI, the group that responded mostly gives PMI a failing grade.

    With appropriate notice, can we get out of this contract Bryan?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 11:45 AM  

  • Lyle Lovett is the definition of a national act, 11:34. Are you perhaps suggesting that the only "national acts" that count are the ones you like?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 11:53 AM  

  • Hey 11:53...was that you I saw at the Lovette concert? Seeing how you an me where the only two there, lets check his tour schedule and take a road trip together..YeHA!!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 12:13 PM  

  • Thanks for keeping the discussion an adult one, 12:13. My original position is that PMI has done OK with national acts but failed the larger community. I personally didn't go to the Lovett concert. Not really my style, but that doesn't make him any less of a national act, regardless of how many attened. For you to suggest otherwise is another example of someone willing to complain about anything because they don't like the Leach or because they simply want more to complain about.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 1:13 PM  

  • Here's what I think. PMI's comments about it being tough to book a concert with a $40 dollar ticket price after Waterfest just had a show for $7 is a reasonable statement. However, PMI knew this when they placed their bid. They were aware that Waterfest was going to be there every week during the summer and they said that they could book shows around Waterfest. I also think that you need to look at PMI's motivations. They also run 3 venues in Green Bay (Resch, Brown County Arena, Meyer Theatre). As far as entertainment is concerned, these venues all fall within the same market. An artist will not play both Oshkosh and Green Bay on the same tour and PMI will not book artists to do that. It doesn't make financial sense for either party. So not only is PMI going to have a hard time booking acts in Oshkosh, they have to balance booking acts in Oshkosh and Green Bay.

    I believe that you can bring national acts to Oshkosh and that they will be successful. I am quite certain that the Godsmack show booked for July will sell very well as well as the Nashville Star tour. But I understand that it can be difficult to pull off successful shows in Oshkosh, especially with Summerfest, Rockfest in Cadott, Country USA, concerts at various casinos (Oneida, Potowatomi). I also, as I stated before, feel that PMI knew this when they signed the contract with the city and are not putting their full concentration towards the city of Oshkosh and the Leach. Perhaps a more local focus would be best.

    By Blogger Unknown, at May 01, 2007 1:18 PM  

  • Cowboy up 1:13 and lets us hit the road to see Lyle!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 1:49 PM  

  • Bryan,

    Off topic, but this is pulled from a different blog site I was looking at and thought you might be able to answer this question.


    I'm questioning the cost/benefit of these city positions:

    1)Urban Forest Technician
    2)Arborist
    3)Horticulturist
    4)Clerk Dispatcher
    5)Staff Artist
    6)Duplicating Machine Operator

    If anyone does know what these people do, or more importantly why we need them in our city government, it might be a great topic of discussion.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 1:58 PM  

  • I attended a spring kickoff rock event at the Leach last year. 4 very good local rock bands. There were not 100 people in attendance. I really am beginning to wonder if Oshkosh can sustain such a facility.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 2:34 PM  

  • Waterfest was successful before the Leach was built and even more now. You can't judge the Leach based on Waterfest, but it sure does seem like that type of music style at that cost per ticket can sure pack the crowds in. Like so many people said, we thought PMI were the big dogs and knew what the market needed and would bare. Its odd that all of us amatures here in blog land are trying to figure it out when we hired a pro to do that for the city. Guess Ken W. from PMI sold us a bill of goods..maybe the only thing he can sell in Oshkosh!!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 2:55 PM  

  • Maybe the research of the viability of such a facility in Oshkosh should have been done BEFORE we buildt the Leach? Instead we build it and figure out if we can fill it later. And you wonder why this city is struggling?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 4:52 PM  

  • Copy and paste dude from 1:58 is so desperate for any bit of attention he can get he has to beg, borrow, and steal his own lame message from other sites to rally support. Dude, it's a lost cause. You are looking so pathetic. It's no wonder you can't get people on your side?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 8:15 PM  

  • Union Dude 8:15 said:
    " It's no wonder you can't get people on your side?"

    Check out the garbage fee vote. We win, You lose!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 8:57 PM  

  • The garbage fee vote!!! Still resting on your laurels, eh? Well, I guess that's all you really can do. You've lost from every other standpoint. If people were really behind your cause Paul E. would be mayor and Kent Monte would be on the council. We win; you and they lose. Your cause is hopeless. Give it up and get a life.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 01, 2007 9:40 PM  

  • 9:40 PM

    The simple point is this...

    Homeowners in Oshkosh do not want taxes increased. They surely don't want fees implemented for core basic city services.

    What does this mean to you (9:40) as a city union employee? Well it means that taxpayers are not willing to blindly agree and allow tax increases to be increased without some serious justification.

    The point was to attempt to find jobs and roles within our city employee base that might lend themselves to outsourcing or even elimination.

    The job titles listed:
    1)Urban Forest Technician
    2)Arborist
    3)Horticulturist
    4)Clerk Dispatcher
    5)Staff Artist
    6)Duplicating Machine Operator

    Its reasonable to question the viability of these positions to the day to day operation of Oshkosh. Do we need them?

    We as taxpayers can't continue to offer 2-3-4% wage increases along with funding 95% of healthcare without some changes made.

    Money could be re-directed from unneeded positions or functions to those positions (Fire Police Water Waste Water) that are crutial to Oshkosh.

    You've made it very clear you don't like discussion on this topic. You'd rather that it would continue to fly under the radar, but with the result of the garbage fee vote, you can surely sense that the general voting and property tax paying population of Oshkosh is putting their collective foot down to new taxes.

    You obviously don't like the focus of attention 9:40, but as your wages and benefits are paid by taxpayers, your faced with listening to our opinions.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 02, 2007 7:38 AM  

  • Okay, you've asked the question umpteen times now. Why do you feel it necessary to continue copying and pasting it? Do you feel like you're not being heard? Or are you just unhappy that most people don't agree with your rant? And you can continue diluting yourself into thinking I am a city employee if you wish but that only weakens an argument that already does not have the support you wish it did. No point has been missed. We've heard you loud and clear. You begrudge the wages and benefits city workers receive but most voters don't. That should tell you everything you need to know about the public's collective foot and where it's being put down.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 02, 2007 7:49 AM  

  • Thank you for admitting your working for me. Up until now, you seemed ashamed to admit that.

    You said...
    "You begrudge the wages and benefits city workers receive"

    Yes, I begrudge anything thats out of balance. I begrudge oil companies for raping the general public with record gas prices while the CEO and corporations are making record profits. That doesn't sit well with me!

    Yes I begrudge the union entitlement mentality. Assuming that even though the private sector is faced with staggering healtcare cost increases, than in most cases negates any wage increases, union employees assume those same taxpayers that struggle to meet their healthcare payment obligations have extra tax dollars to spend and fund 95% of your healthcare coverage...on top of providing a 2-4% wage increase!
    That doesn't sit well with me!

    The voters in Oshkosh were fairly split. Frank Tower didn't win with anything near a landslide...and Mr. Tower himself in many campaign statements made comments that city employee wages and benefits are a major part of the operating budget. That these costs will need to be controlled.

    So don't think that Mr. Tower is about to write checks to the unions that he can't afford.

    You as a city employee need to understand you play a major role in your future earnings,

    If you come to the table and are willing to offer ways to eliminated redundent positions, consolodate services, outsource those jobs that might fit that model, eliminate outdated methods and implement new cost saving routines things will be better.

    BUT if you and your peers just assume we taxpayers are an endless cash cow, you will face a very sad future.

    No go back to work. What shift do you work anyhow??

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 02, 2007 8:13 AM  

  • Blahblahblah

    And I never said I was a city worker. Not only can you not understand the message sent by the voters but you don't read too well either.

    Frank Tower may have said things are a little out of kilter but you refuse to understand there are laws in place to protect union workers from the very thing you want the city council to do. Go get a decent job and you won't feel as testy about things. Or move to Sheboygan where health bennies are paid 100%.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 02, 2007 10:33 AM  

  • 10:33 AM
    You sure do fit the entitlement mode.

    Sure aren't a team player are you? That's been the downfall of the private sector unions. Public sector unions still are insulated by some laws, but who knows, maybe things can chage there.

    Now get back to work!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 02, 2007 10:46 AM  

  • And you sure are nothing but a smug, arrogant nincumpoop who refuses to listen when people speak. Are you deaf; blind; or just brain dead? Sorry, can't get back to work when my shift hasn't started yet but at least I have a job I'm happy with and I enjoy life.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 02, 2007 11:42 AM  

  • If union workers refuse to make concessions they will leave us no choice but to decrease services and thus layoff workers. It is that simple. There si only so much money to go around with the caps the state has on the city. Layoffs or contracting services out to the private sector will become inevitable.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 02, 2007 12:04 PM  

  • Certain things are not permissible under state law. Past councils approved the big wages and benefits. Now the current council is supposed to clean up their mess. Yet some of those same former councilors are the ones complaining the loudest. Figures.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 02, 2007 12:25 PM  

  • It’s encouraging to see the city has suggestion box options for people to now submit kudos, praises, cost cutting ideas, etc to the city administration.

    Mr. Burk Tower indicates the goal is to improve communication and make the city more customer friendly.

    Seems that in these rather trying economic times when good cost cutting suggestions are made on blog sites, there is a defined swell of adversity and a desire to stifle any conversation about how some city functions could be downsized, outsourced, combined or eliminated.

    I guess it’s natural to be protective of your livelihood, but as a city worker, the news is that many Oshkosh taxpayers are looking at DEEP justification of some of the "fringe" jobs before they will even hear of paying more taxes to sustain the current wage and benefit package afforded city workers.

    Now there are other options to move your suggestions rather than just blog sites.
    Lets use all of them to insure our city administration hears us.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 02, 2007 12:30 PM  

  • Lord only knows what ANY of this has to do with the Leach, but I'll play your game and use your logic and some of your own words to do so.

    Seems that in these rather trying times for councilors and their supporters to make headway on slicing and dicing union jobs and benefits, some will use whatever method they can to convince the taxpaying majority that they've got it bad and that ain't good. In an effort to do that they will try to stifle conversation by intimidation, name calling, and making outlandish assumptions that anyone not in their camp must be a city worker or union member.

    I guess it's natural to think your position is right and that everyone in their right mind shold agree with you, but not seeing an outpouring of complaints from a majority of citizens about salaries and benefits, and being in the minority at the ballot box, they should understand that most voters just aren't that worked up over salaries and benefits.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 02, 2007 5:20 PM  

  • No worrys Mate, you guys are super insulated from cuts and salary slashing. Go ahead an bash the taxpayers...those sheep who keep you an your familes fed cuz they can't do boo squat to dump youre jobs no matter how much they whine. Lets push for a 5% raise next time and we gotta match SHE boyGans 100% meds coverage.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 02, 2007 9:07 PM  

  • Whew, that's a load off my mind.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 03, 2007 10:24 AM  

  • Lord only knows what ANY of this has to do with the Leach!

    Sounds to me like a "monte blog"
    can't stay on the subject and all the negativity.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 05, 2007 4:52 PM  

  • On the NW Blog:
    What can the Soviet-style bureaucrats at City Hall do? Cut regulations, taxes and deadwood employees dramatically. Oshkosh city employees make Dilbert's pointy-haired boss look like a genius by comparison.

    Looks like somebody else thinks some cuttin needs doin!

    Gotta save money somewhere. The Leach isn't bring it in by the truckload.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 06, 2007 3:59 PM  

  • 3:59 said..."deadwood employees"

    Care to share more? If you know something, please tell.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 06, 2007 7:11 PM  

  • As was discussed many times in other blogs. The only unions still viable are public sector.

    Private sector unions are loosing members by droves as corporations demand concessions or threaten off-shoring jobs.

    Public sector jobs are paid by taxpayer’s. Not profit demanding stockholders.

    There is a huge difference, and the only areas that are maintaining any increases in wages and benefits are those in the public sector unions, as they are protected by arbitration and quid pro quo laws.

    The playing field is not level.

    Taxpayers should not fund 95% of healthcare for those that work for them as city employees, when they, through their employers are being faced with no pay increases and constant healthcare cost increases.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 07, 2007 9:20 PM  

  • As long as there are blogs, I will keep putting out the message that city services could all be maintained, and none risk cuts, if rather than funding employee medical expenses to the toon of 95%, we adjusted to a more normal 80%.

    By saving 15% on those costs, Oshkosh would not have to look very far for money to provide better quality of living projects for all the Oshkosh residents.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 08, 2007 8:57 AM  

  • BORING!!!!!!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 08, 2007 11:30 AM  

  • Yes, the truth can be boring at times, but never-the-less it is the truth!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 08, 2007 12:11 PM  

  • It may be the truth but hardly anyone cares. You're on the outside looking in.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 08, 2007 4:50 PM  

  • So...hardly anyone cares about the truth??...Now that's an ignorant statement.


    Here is an accurate truthful statement, look back at what you wrote, and re-read this and think hard about the difference's...my truth, your fiction.

    "The playing field is not level.

    Taxpayers should not fund 95% of healthcare for those that work for them as city employees, when they, through their employers are being faced with no pay increases and constant healthcare cost increases."

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 08, 2007 8:39 PM  

  • So move. I hear Sheboygan has a sweet deal. I didn't say hardly anyone cares about the truth. But you already knew that, didn't you? In case you are dumber than I think the point is hardly anyone cares about your worn out copy and pasted speeches. The election mde that pretty clear or have you been so glued to the keyboard you've missed the results?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 08, 2007 8:54 PM  

  • 8:54, it appears you are a very troubled, misguided city employee.

    You need to understand that people are not willing to pay more property taxes in Oshkosh. If you wish to continue on your entitlement path, you will begin to see that some of your peers will need to loose their jobs to maintain the 95% taxpayer funded healthcare along with other benefits and fine wages provided to you by the taxpayer.

    I assume that won't bother you, as long as it's not YOUR job thats lost.

    That is a very traditional narcistic culture many in organized labor hold.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 09, 2007 6:50 AM  

  • And this has what to do with the current subject of the Leach????

    It looks like the Leach has plans to improve the attendance at the facility. New acts are booked; now its up to Oshkosh and the surrounding communities to support the acts being brought in.
    I think the Nashville Tour 2007 will get the best response.
    What do you think?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 09, 2007 6:55 AM  

  • Black crows. Never heard of them, but at least somethings been booked. We'll watch ticket sales to see how successful PMI is with this.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 09, 2007 7:44 AM  

  • I just want to say that I am happy to see sidewalks through this area. I have been running along the Wiowash trail for years and am always troubled to find this area without sidewalks.

    The talk about neighbors and what they want seems to be secondary to the needs of the community. Why should anyone who wants to use the public trail be forced to walk on the streets?

    Obviously, the people who built the development wanted to keep the rifraff (in their estimation) out by making it difficult to use the trail. I am very glad that we will soon see better public access through the area! THANK You Brian.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 09, 2007 1:39 PM  

  • It’s a fairly long list, but you’ll notice one name on this list that was involved in the discussion last night:

    Mr. Jon Dell’Antonia Is listed in the “Other Endorsements” section. I hope our elected officials are able to remain un-biased in their voting, even when faced with a situation like last night where Mr. Dell’Antonia was a key player and as such was potentially influential to those that voted.


    King for Council

    Chair:
    Larry Spanbauer

    Treasurer:
    Vicky Bodin

    Members at Large:
    Victoria Beltran
    Kathy Bermingham
    Amanda Cone
    Allan Degner
    Jef Hall
    Matt Jones
    Kiernan Jungbacker
    John Kerrigan
    Heather Holly Pinnow
    Jill Reichenberger
    Lori Renning
    Michael C. Russell
    Shari Steinbruner
    Brandon Strand
    Ada Lara Thimke
    Thomas J. Wolfe

    Other Endorsements:
    Peter and Vida Allen
    Susan Andrews
    Victoria Beltran
    Kathy Bermingham
    Karen and Ted Bowen
    Shirley Brabender Mattox
    M. Colleen Bradley
    Amanda Cone
    Michael Cooney
    Allan Degner

    Jon Dell’Antonia

    Dave and Sue Elbing
    Elliott Garb
    Christian and Helen Gossett
    Jef Hall
    Brian Hamill
    Mark Harris
    Gordon Hintz
    Stephen and Anne Hintz
    Heather Holly Pinnow
    Eric Hoopman
    John Ingala
    Matt Jones
    Kiernan Jungbacker
    Peter and Karola Jungbacker
    Dennis Kavanaugh
    John and Pat Kerrigan
    Kurt and Judie Koeppler
    Mark Lasky
    Phyllis Leach
    Tiffany Martin
    James and Sharon Mather
    Jeremy Monnett
    Mike Norton
    Mary Olson
    Jessica Palm
    Dan and Jen Posanski
    Ky Rasmussen
    Jill Reichenberger
    Nick Reitzler
    Tony and Lori Renning
    David and Anne Romond
    Michael Russell
    Patti Samida
    Jan Scalpone
    Kristine Schumann
    Larry and Carol Spanbauer
    Eric and Adriane Sparr
    Shari Steinbruner
    Jack Steinhilber
    Brandon Strand
    Ada Lara Thimke
    Cynthia Thorpe
    Jane Van De Hey
    Jan Viste
    Keith and Barbara Voelker
    Tom and Sue Werblow
    Thomas J. Wolfe
    AFSCME/PEOPLE Committee
    Progressive Majority
    REALTORS Association of Northeast Wisconsin

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 09, 2007 3:17 PM  

  • We know who "buttered" Ms King's butterburger and we say her repay
    part of the debt last night. Stay Tuned.
    Thankx to 5 councilors for doing the right thing for ALL of Oshkosh.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 09, 2007 5:49 PM  

  • Give me a break. Do you really believe that Ms. King voted this way because Dell'Antonia supported her? He can more than afford the sidewalk installation and I believe she articulated her reasons for her vote pretty well. I don't happen to agree with them but they did make sense. Burk Tower also agreed with them so if the only reason King voted against the sidewalks was because Dell'Antonia supported her campaign, what is Burk Tower's reason? You're grasping at straws. Give it a rest.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at May 09, 2007 11:18 PM  

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